Emergency Response With Greg Albrecht

Transcript

Mandi Walls: Welcome to Page it to the Limit. A podcast where we explore what it takes to run software and production successfully. We cover leading practices used in the software industry to improve our system reliability and the lives of the people supporting their system. I’m your host Mandi Walls. Find me @lnxchk on Twitter. All right. Welcome to the show. Today, I am talking with Greg Albrecht. He is the co-founder and CTO at Orion Labs. Greg has an interesting day job, but he also has a whole bunch of other fascinating things that he does. So we’re going to be talking about a whole bunch of interesting things today. Greg, welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about what you do.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah, thanks for having me and thanks for pronouncing my last name correctly. I realize it’s a genetic disorder that I carry with me, but I appreciate it when people get it right? Yeah. Happy to be here. And I wear lots of different hats, both during the day and other times of my life. So I’m happy to delve into any of those.

Mandi Walls: Yeah. Excellent. So tell us a bit about what Orion does and why it got started. So I knew some of you folks, because Jesse Robbins, our founder worked at Chef when I was there, but you guys have an interesting mission. Like what was the thought process there? How did this all get started?

Greg Albrecht: Jesse and I have a shared background in large-scale web systems as do you, and some of the other folks on your team there, but we also have the background in emergency services as first responders. Jesse being a firefighter, lieutenant. Me being a EMT and EMS supervisor. We’ve also both been disaster deployed for hurricanes, earthquakes, wildfires, things of that nature. And what we saw was that there was this last mile gap for communications in those environments. As folks who typically are data-driven or knowledge workers as some would call it, those types of users typically work at a desk or have an office, but folks who are deployed out in the field, downrange, responding in routine jobs or in emergent situations tend to be cut off from the types of data systems and knowledge systems that are available to those of us who drive a desk. And so what we wanted to do was manifest that data, manifests that knowledge that a user might need out in the field in a way that got a low overhead that’s natural. Right? And so what we looked at was what is the most natural way people communicate when they work outside of an office and it’s using their voice. Well, how do people typically use their voice? Well, they’re either shouting or they’re using something like a two-way radio, a walkie-talkie or handheld radio. So he said, “Well, I mean, we have the ability to deliver audio and receive audio from edge devices like smartphones today. Why can’t we amplify that? Right? Why can’t we make that smarter?” That was what we did. We first built a platform that delivers that audio experience, a push to talk like experience to end users using any device that they have. And then we added intelligence to it. We made it so that it’s not just a dumb pipe. It’s a smart pipe now, if you will. We want to put the data that those users need in their hands, at the place of work. And that was the mission of Orion.

Mandi Walls: So along with what you do in Orion, you do a lot of other extracurricular things too. You’re in San Francisco, right? You work with the responders there and events. And tell us a bit about some of the other stuff that you do.

Greg Albrecht: Sure. I’ve been an EMS for longer than I can remember. And I’ve been doing disaster response since, before I could legally drive, but it inspired me to actually become certified and become an EMT. So I sometimes work as an EMT here in San Francisco for a special events' provider. It’s a nonprofit called Rock Medicine. I’m also one of their EMS field supervisors. So typically what that means is I show up and someone hands me a clipboard and a radio, but what that lets me do is move beyond simply being a caregiver, which I do still really enjoy. I enjoy the patient interaction and the hands-on aspect of it, but moving more into the operational overview aspect of those types of events. So if we can imagine for a large, let’s say a festival or a concert, there’s a lot of work that goes into not just running the festival. The sound, the lights, ticketing, security, vendors, all of those things. But also it becomes its own little city. There’s a need to manage the emergencies within that mini little city. And more importantly, it’s not just that it’s a new thing that needs to get managed. It’s like yet another emergency to manage, but it needs to be done in a way that it doesn’t interfere with the response that the people in the community would normally be receiving. So for example, if there’s a large festival and someone gets injured, we need to be able to handle that there. If we have to call it an ambulance from outside of the festival, that means that ambulance is now not serving the local community. And you as a taxpayer, you expect when you call 911, you get an ambulance there within a certain period. Right?

Mandi Walls: Yeah.

Greg Albrecht: So the ambulance has been pulled off to go help someone at a festival who hurt themselves, that’s detracting from your service. So we fill that gap. We like to say, we take everything inside the box and manage it there. It’s a non-emergent planned event that requires a lot of coordination and a lot of communication. It definitely exemplifies the expression, Semper Gumby, which is not always flexible.

Mandi Walls: Okay. That’s a good one to know. You mentioned earlier that you’ve been doing this since you were a kid. How did you get started in this thing?

Greg Albrecht: That’s a really good question. Hurricane Andrew hit Florida in ‘92.

Mandi Walls: Oh, yeah.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah.

Mandi Walls: Right.

Greg Albrecht: And I remember I was pretty young when that happened and I had grandparents living in Florida at the time and I remember calling them and asking, I didn’t know anything about hurricanes. I was not living in Florida at that time but I remember, seeing it on the news and like, “That’s big. That looks like it’s going to be dangerous.” And I called my grandparents and I grilled them. I’m like, “What are you guys going to do? Are you going to fill the bathtub with water or this, that, and the other? What steps are you going to take?” And afterward of course we called them to make sure that they were okay. And I asked my grandfather, what did you do during the hurricane? And he said, “I went and worked at a red cross shelter at the local high school.” In South Florida they evacuate folks from the coastal areas inward depending on the category of the hurricane. So they have to open shelters and they need a ham radio operators to go provide backup communications or sometimes even primary communications at these shelters that they open. It happens every summer, right?

Mandi Walls: Yeah.

Greg Albrecht: A hurricane rolls through every several years, right? So it’s something that’s easy to train on, but what blew my mind was this retired judge who’s a ham radio hobbyist, living at South Florida, well into retirement, took his life in his hands in effect and went and volunteered for the community, providing communications during a disaster. That’s what opened my eyes to this capability in this way of helping, right? This way of giving back. And that was for, how old am I? Quite a long time ago, but it really set the wheels in motion. And I’m like, “Oh, there’s a gap. There’s a need for this type of capability during disasters. How can we advance that?” So that’s how it got started.

Mandi Walls: Yeah. And how do other folks get involved? And you send your EMT and that’s a lot of training and a bit of dedication for folks with. For those of us mortals, are there things that you see that other folks do on a regular basis to help out with that disaster recovery or…?

Greg Albrecht: Yeah, I wrote an article around this and it’s called, “So you want to be a superhero?” And it describes all the different ways that you could take personal planning and preparedness into your own hands. Everything from, just getting your CPR. Something simple, an hour, a couple hours of your time to refresh on this. And if it’s something you’ve only ever done once, the science change. This is the interesting thing about medicine. As compared to some of the technical stuff that you and I would deal with on the infrastructure side, everything we do in medicine is driven by medical science. If you’ve taken CPR for more than five years or so, you realize like, “Hey, every time there’s something new that I learned, right? It went from mouth to mouth breathing to now, not to mouth breathing, to compression only to this.” And it’s because the medical science has informed that. And I think that’s an interesting aspect to working in some of these fields. It’s not just that we’re constantly putting the white stuff on the red stuff. It’s that now we actually evaluate that both qualitatively and quantitatively, and we feed that back into the training. So if you haven’t taken CPR in a long time, I recommend you recertify on it and actually redoing this every year or every couple of years, because you’ll see that the science changes every couple of years. In addition to that, a lot of communities have cert programs, community emergency response team programs that will equip you with the skills and the training and the knowledge to respond in a disaster. This is all personal preparedness.

Mandi Walls: Yeah.

Greg Albrecht: If you want to move beyond that, of course you can become an EMR, which is an Emergency Medical Responder, an EMT, there’s wilderness EMT courses. I would even take a lifeguard course if I have the time. Because everyone goes to a beach or a pool at some point, there’s not always lifeguards around. There’s additional training you could harness there. And then the other part of it is put it into daily use. Band-aids expire, alcohol pads expire, make it part of your everyday kit. Don’t make a disaster the time to break out the disaster skills. Try to apply those skills in your everyday life. Incident planning, incident response, scale of responsibility, communication pace plans, things like that. I’ll give you an example. Right? So pace plan is something that I promote for emergency response communications, and it describes primary, alternative, contingency, and emergency communications methods. so for example, primary might be, “Hey, call me on the phone at 12 o’clock. I’ll come pick you up.” Your alternative might be, “Text me if I don’t answer on the phone.” Cool. Your contingency might be, “Hey, if I don’t call and if I don’t text you, I’ll pick you up at the steps at eight o’clock.” Right? Cool. That’s your contingency. Emergency is, “Ask the front office to call me if I don’t show up or walk home.” There’s your pace plan for picking up someone after a soccer. Worst case walk home, if that’s the neighborhood you live in. But that’s something you could apply to everyday and it gets you familiar with that type of thinking. And I think when a stressful or emergent situation happens, you’ve already got that in your back pocket. Right? It’s just routine for you at that point.

Mandi Walls: Yeah.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah.

Mandi Walls: Do you find yourself applying this stuff to the work that you do, like your regular job? PagerDuty would do a lot of work with customers going through their incident response planning, helping them get some of that muscle memory around just dealing with things. Right? So that they’re not completely crazy when an incident happens. How do you find yourself applying some of these practices to technical issues or things that you do half for your day job?

Greg Albrecht: Yeah. In the EMS, we call it the psychomotor action or their muscle memory. Like what is the first thing your hands do when you need to do this thing? And it’s something we train on a lot. We use an incident management system at Orion. Everything that happens that’s outside of a nominal, becomes an incident. Now it might not necessarily require a full scale up, with an incident commander and subject matter experts across the board. But if we don’t track it, if it wasn’t written down, it didn’t happen or it isn’t happening. And there’s no way to scale that communication unless you’re already using that system. So we use incident management system for almost everything we do at Orion. The benefit of that is not only are folks trained in it and using it every day, but it’s not scary. The fact that an incident is open, the fact that someone hit the end all night isn’t something that you should be frightened of. It’s like, “Oh, what do I need to do? What resources are needed to resolve this? Is there something I can do to contribute to this?” It empowers people as opposed to scares them or disenfranchises them.

Mandi Walls: You built quite a team over Orion. As you bring folks on, have they practiced this kind of stuff before? Or is this something that you teach them when they come on board to think about these things as well?

Greg Albrecht: Most folks with a technical background, even without the technical background, right? Most folks who are coming from what I’ll say, “The industry.” I would say the technology industry, aren’t familiar with this type of response capability. So it’s something we train folks on and sometimes bring in outside coaches to train on this. And then, between the corpus of knowledge we have internally, we’ll train folks on this, but we don’t deviate on it. So there’s an expression we use. And again, it falls back on the EMS training, which is, when you get on scene of an incident, you don’t just jump right into it. Right?

Mandi Walls: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Greg Albrecht: And you also don’t see people running. You have to do a scene size up. Someone calls 911, you show up, you got to look around first. You don’t just jump right into it. You do a scene size up and part of your scene size up is, “Do I need any additional resources or do I think I might need any additional resources for this incident?” If so, let’s get them on their way. The best thing to burn is diesel or the best thing to burn is gasoline. And by that, I mean, it’s better to get the help all the way and then have to have them turn around than not at all. We can always refill the gas tank. Yeah.

Mandi Walls: Sure.

Greg Albrecht: So it’s the same management incident response within Orion. It’s better to call 911 early than late. It’s better to declare an incident earlier than later. It gets the wheels in motion for the additional resources you might need.

Mandi Walls: Yeah. Yeah. We turned on as never hesitate to escalate. Bringing the folks in that. If you’re not sure what’s going on, you want to get another set of eyeballs on it and really get that 360 view with help there. So, yeah.

Greg Albrecht: I’ll add one more anecdote we’ve manifested internally which is now that everyone’s more remote, it’s not as prevalent but I’m particularly proud of this one. And it’s the two man rule. We implement our own version of the two man rule. If someone has declared an incident and they are currently the only person working on the incident, let’s say someone gets paged and they are now responding to the incident. It is the responsibility of the second person to bring pastries.

Mandi Walls: I like that role.

Greg Albrecht: You have to bring donut. Yes.

Mandi Walls: There you go.

Greg Albrecht: We figure, whoever responded first is probably going to be hungry or low blood sugar at this point, if you’re rolling in, if you’re the second, man, you need to bring donuts.

Mandi Walls: I’m absolutely using that. I’m going to put that in our guide for incident response.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah.

Mandi Walls: 100%

Greg Albrecht: Yeah. We had a term for it. It was our SOP, Standard Operating Pastry.

Mandi Walls: Excellent. Oh, Standard Operating Pastry. That’s fantastic.

Greg Albrecht: Standard Operating Pastry. Yes.

Mandi Walls: That’s great. Yeah. You had mentioned earlier about the way CPR has changed and all those kinds of things. For the broader response, do you see things coming closer together? I feel like for technical teams, we’re improving and we’re actually putting some kind of guidelines around things that work probably weren’t there before. Are things still evolving and changing in real-world response that we might see come into more technical response over time?

Greg Albrecht: Yeah. I think the idea of real-time situational awareness is something that, at least in the… Let’s say the defense response space has really come to fruition and it’s because bandwidth is no longer an issue in those environments. So it’s a lot easier to stream real time sensor data telemetry from distant sources and see it locally. So the data-driven response I think is what has changed on, I don’t want to call it the real world side, but the outside for first responders. Data-driven is very much how it’s gone. I think on the technical response side, we’ve always had that but it’s been secondary to problem solving.

Mandi Walls: Oh, great. Sure.

Greg Albrecht: Right? Yeah. We ask the question, we need to answer a problem at any given time and then move on, versus taking the entire common operating picture in and assessing on the fly. There was an analogy for this, I was just reading. There’s this idea of planning. We plan for incidents and I heard an interesting take on this which was, “You don’t build a plan because you’re going to follow the plan. You build the plan as a way of measuring your adherence to the plan after the operation.” You’re going to respond to the operation the way that you’ve trained to respond to an operation, whether or not that’s what’s written down in the plan or not, but it’s your job afterwards. You go back and evaluate, “Oh, what did we actually have in the plan versus how we executed the operation?” I think the maturity around how everyone responds is going to grow. So the other thing is, we need a break down the wall between like, “Well, this is how you respond to a fire and this is how you respond to an earthquake and this is how you respond to a data set or going out.” It’s the same response. It’s the same, right? There’s nothing different about it. You have to manage your resources, you need the entire structure if it gets large enough. Any organization would be fooling themselves to think that it doesn’t apply to them. If it can apply to the most stressful and life-threatening situations, then you could definitely be distilled for where you’re operating. You just have to believe at again.

Mandi Walls: Sure. Take the time to make it part of your practice. I feel like places that are still reluctant or maybe even to the point of not ignoring it, but putting it off until tomorrow or delaying thinking about things because it feels like too much or it’s too complicated or whatever else they’re hung up on that they’re still using older practices that are holding them back from really getting to the point of in resolving their incidents and dealing with their issues in a better way.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah. I mean, there’s the principle of, “Make the hard things easy and make the easy things go away.” And I think this is what gets you there.

Mandi Walls: Yeah, definitely. So you’ve been doing this for a long time. What’s something that you wish maybe you had known earlier that you learned over the years, now you learned it the hard way and wish it had been maybe more apparent or something that had been available earlier?

Greg Albrecht: This’ll be my Opus Magnum, the book that I write of just all these things.

Mandi Walls: That would be excellent. Yeah.

Greg Albrecht: You’re going to run into people like me, who says things like this, and you’re going to be really resentful of it at the time. And then upon reflection, you’re going to be like, “Darn it. I should have done it that way.” I’m saying this as someone who was that person at some point. So things like perfect is the enemy of done, right? And you run into this a lot when you’re ideating or you’re trying to demonstrate something for a potential customer, investor, partner, whatever it is. It doesn’t actually have to work. If you can describe it, if you can articulate it and you can make someone believe that it’s technically possible, then it’s possible. If you think hard enough about it, you can make it happen. That doesn’t mean it has to be done when you show it to someone.

Mandi Walls: Sure.

Greg Albrecht: You still have to pay rent. You still have to pay your mortgage. You still have to buy food. Right? You need to get yourself through each of those, I don’t know, gateways, if you will. To get to the point where you can make it perfect. But until then you need to finish. You need to ship. And if that requires taking something that’s off the shelf and re-skinning it and throwing it out there, if that solves a problem for you or for a customer, that’s good enough, you need to move on. And I realized, that becomes technical debt later on, but there’s only so much technical debt you could take on before you… Again, you have to pay for dinner. You have to pay mortgage. So, that’s one. The other is… And you learn this more as out in the field, but it’s two is one, one is none. You never have enough of a thing. I call it my rule of fives, especially when you’re building things, manufacturing hardware, building components, things like that, which is you don’t find one of the things, you never order one of the thing, you order five of the thing and the five are, one to use, one to lose, one to lend, one to break, one to spare. Right?

Mandi Walls: That totally works. Yeah.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah, yeah. It’s going to happen. Right?

Mandi Walls: Yeah.

Greg Albrecht: So never be afraid to have a backup. There’s plenty more lessons from the book, but the move fast break things, not in production, don’t move fast and break things in production. However, if you’re pre-production as many companies are early on, you should certainly move as quickly as you can to get those proof points.

Mandi Walls: Yeah. Excellent advice. While we’re sitting here, we won’t have video for the folks listening on the podcast but I’m super curious about all of the things you have on your shelf behind you. So for the folks listening at home, Greg has a very wide variety of things that have antennas on the bookshelf behind him. Is there anything back there that’s super weird or interesting or that you’re super proud of or is your favorite piece of interesting kit back there?

Greg Albrecht: Wow. Yeah, this is my museum of hardware. So there’s a device here I particularly like. And when we pitch Orion, we sometimes pitch it as a push to talk service. It’s so much more than that. But it naturally makes people think of radios and walkie talkies. And of course that’s partially because that’s my background but in researching protocols, we would use the talk methods we would use. I came upon this company, that’s now defunct, unfortunately called TriSquare. And they built a radio and they were the only company that ever built a radio like this. And it’s unfortunate, it looks very much like a Nextel phone. If you remember the classic Nextel phones. It has a screen and a key pad but it’s not a phone. It’s a radio. And it’s built using a technology that they were the only ones to ever actually implement commercially in their own product, which is a 900 megahertz spread spectrum two way radio. Which is not a technology that almost any other commercial off the shelf radio uses. Right? If you ever go to a store and you see someone, at a retail environment, a restaurant, and you see someone using a walkie talkie there, it is a 100%, most definitely not going to be using the same type of technology that this company developed. And it was a game changer and it just didn’t go anywhere. And the company is now out of business and I don’t know if they sold off their patent portfolio, but I was really happy to get a couple of these. And I’m like, “Wow, this is neat technology.” I’m surprised it didn’t take off. So, yes. I mean, it still works if you turn it on but I’m pretty proud of me. So I’ll hold on to these. They’re not like anything else I have here on the shelf. And then the other things on the shelf are a lot of different types of two-way radios for public safety, commercial users, ham radios, there’s some defense radios up there. I have a wildland radio up there, which is an interesting piece of kit, but I keep these as not just reminders of the different ways that organizations communicate, but as research topics. Like why do you need a screen like that? Why do you want a keypad? What kind of information are you communicating? And who are you communicating it with? And in what operating modes are you in when you need to communicate those things and it… Oh, so what can we automate away? This is something I learned early on, learning computers was let the computer do the hard work.

Mandi Walls: Yes.

Greg Albrecht: If any of these radios are smart enough, can they do the hard work for you? And so that’s the thing I’m always looking for is like, how much cognitive offload do these technologies offer to the end user?

Mandi Walls: Yeah. It’s a fascinating collection. Absolutely. And that’s definitely an interesting way to think about it. Like, you have all these various products, obviously they’re differentiated by certain things and then figuring out the why and what they give to their users is definitely an interesting path to go down for any products that we end up using, especially for things that they’re doing a job for you, but you want them to be out of your way.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah. Here’s an interesting way to think about it as well. In order to amplify a user’s capabilities. You would call this a force multiplier. How can the communications channel be a force multiplier for the end user? And one way of thinking about it is to disregard the content of the communications channel. This is going back to… You probably go all the way back to Shannon with this, but I don’t actually need to know what someone’s saying to make assumptions about what they’re doing. So I’ll give you an example. This is from public safety, but I think you can apply it all across the board. If you think about firefighters responding to a house fire, they roll up, they do a scene size up and assessment, initial assessment, and then they can call additional resources if they need to. But once they’re on scene, they’re the ones that are giving information to the rest of the organization, to dispatch or to the commanders. The things they’re doing fire to fire, don’t actually change that much. You show up, you do a scene size up, you do your initial attack, you plan. All of that is structured. How much of that can I use to make predictions about what you might need next versus you having to think about asking for those things you need next. You need to focus on the task at hand, which is putting the white stuff on the red stuff, doing a rescue, doing your overhaul, doing all of those things. Let the computer do the hard work. If the system judges that you are moving from an initial attack to an extended attack, to a rescue that you need to strike a second alarm, have that happen automatically. Get that help on the way, sooner than later. Get the RIC on the way sooner than later. I can look at your conversational cadence. I could look at your geo location. I could look at the groups you’re communicating in, the users you communicated with and use that to make predictions about what’s coming next. And again, offload that from you, from you having to think about calling in additional resources. The system’s going to take care of it for me, because it sees that I’m talking a lot and that we haven’t left scene in a little while. It’s going to go ahead and strike that second alarm for me. I don’t need to worry about it. I can focus on what’s in front of me.

Mandi Walls: That’s great. The applications for machine learning or any like a smarter processes that can actually do that and use that to build that machine intuitiveness around what folks are doing and then augment the actual activity is absolutely fascinating for different use cases that are more than some of the silliness that it gets used for.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah. I mean, there’s no harm in, if you make it not in the critical path. You make it… auxiliary is not the right word, but an amplifier for what you’re doing, then you get it out of the way. So like a smart lights are a good example. Yeah. I could stick a button everywhere in the house that triggers my smart lights or I can yell at the speaker robot to do it. But if there’s no other way to turn on the smart lights very quickly, you’ll see how quickly the smart speaker and those buttons are torn out. Because I need a manual way of doing it. Well, moving towards having scenes and automations, it doesn’t remove the need for a manual override, but it gets the technology out of the way of the mission.

Mandi Walls: Yeah.

Greg Albrecht: And this is something, one of my coworkers came up with. Desmond at Orion, “Get the technology out of the way of the mission. You focus on the mission, let the technology take care of the other things for you.”

Mandi Walls: Yeah. That’s very profound, Desmond. Thank you very much.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah.

Mandi Walls: Well, I think that’s a great thing to wrap up with. Do you have anything else you’d like to share with folks before we end today?

Greg Albrecht: Don’t panic. Don’t panic.

Mandi Walls: The perfect advice. Yes.

Greg Albrecht: I was working at event one time and this is one of the statements that someone said to me at the time that I was very resentful about, but I now use the statement myself. So it’s come full, I’ve become my parents if you will.

Mandi Walls: Yes.

Greg Albrecht: I had a briefcase with all my planning documents in it and maps and just everything, everything under the sun that you could possibly need at an incident. And it started raining and I left the briefcase on the ground. I was like a pilots case with maps and stuff. That’s on the ground, it got wet. All my stuff got wet and I was super upset. And this guy is like, “Ah, stuff got wet. Huh?” I’m like, “Yeah.” He’s like, “Well, the only way to stop the rain is to plan for it.” And I’m like, “Ah, his right.”

Mandi Walls: Yes. I gets you. Yes.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah. It’s something along those lines. But the only way to deal with the rain is to plan for it. And I’m like, “Dang it.” But it cuts both ways.

Mandi Walls: Yes.

Greg Albrecht: [inaudible 00:31:24] what I was getting at with. Not only have you planned for it, but if you’ve planned for it, then it’s not a big deal. Whatever it’s rain, they were wet now.

Mandi Walls: You can’t stop it. It’s going to rain.

Greg Albrecht: Can’t stop. It’s going to rain. How do you… You’ve got to plan for it. So, yeah. That’s the thing I try to apply across the board. You got to plan for that contingency. Even if you have to carry an extra battery, if you don’t carry the extra battery, you know you’ll need the extra battery.

Mandi Walls: Yes.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah. Bring that extra cable. Yeah.

Mandi Walls: Awesome. Thank you, Greg so much. This has been absolutely fascinating. So I hope everyone out there has enjoyed it as much as I have. Thanks for being on.

Greg Albrecht: Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

Mandi Walls: Excellent. All right. So we’re signing off. This is Mandi Walls and I am wishing you an uneventful day. That does it for another installment of Page it to the Limit. We’d like to thank our sponsor PagerDuty for making this podcast possible. Remember to subscribe to this podcast, if you like what you’ve heard. You can find our show notes at pageittothelimit.com and you can reach us on Twitter @pageit2thelimit using the number two. Thank you so much for joining us and remember, an eventful days are beautiful days.